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 Why don't you play the beta?

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Triton144
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PostSubject: Why don't you play the beta?   Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:45 am

Just want to see exactly what peoples thoughts are and why they don't or what the main obstacle is in their way of playing/enjoying the beta. Even players that play or like the beta may comment just say the thing you dislike or needs to be reworked the most. All off topic post or replies to another player's post will be deleted.
   -Thanks, Triton

I'll start with mine Lack of diversity in humans as far as damage output. And I agree with opaca it is too linear. (only one way to play) (Though yes I am aware the new towers are coming to future version but until then that is mine.)

EDIT:
Problems so Far

1)Tremble op vs early spike towers.( Causing frenchies to be op early on and no use later)
2)unimaginative models/towers (though i believe this is being fixed)



2 People say its not 1.5 (Try to think outside the box why is it not as good as 1.5?)
2 People say no pubs so I don't autowin (Really?)


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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:41 pm

* frenchman and meatwagon nerfs
* too few towers
* uncreative/boring tower models/names (flame tower level 1, flame tower level 2...level 5, as opposed to comet,meteor,star and void beast towers)
* new bases all the time, so you have to relearn the map/find a new favorite base
* hammer one shots towers, so you have to place every tower +1000 range, which is very vexing
* there is only one way you can play human, so new version = cant mess around
* max of 1 gem building for each color
* tremble one shots spike towers, so you cant have spikes in a spot where they can attack units coming into your base before they are past your wall
* no more slayer hammers(yes i know these were kinda OP, but maybe add weaker ones)
* passing items does not reset cooldown anymore, so some vamp strategies that required micro/quick fingers are no more
* changed the position of the vamp shops(why would you do this?)
* vampire's items lumber cost too high
* not many items at citadel of faith, not many items for your human to use

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:08 pm

not enough pubs playing
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:14 pm

czydude wrote:
not enough pubs playing
czydude summed it up perfectly
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:35 pm

Honestly just too different from my beloved 1.500f. however this is just a matter of getting used to it.

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:49 pm

When I joined testing groups a couple of time beta seemed to me very boring. Everything was different, inluding the hotkeys, which was pissing me off. Global leak system, too simple terrain, where there are only big bases with no small spots, where u can hide 10 workers or 1-2 buildings. On the one hand, I like more random things. I like to fight for MY leak, I like to pass the hammer from my lich to my nosf and back to my lich to destroy the GM. On the other hand, when sometimes I play against a very good humans I understand that if there is no feed at all, I have no chance in winning the game, cuz humans are OP. Some base's entrances are so close, that towers of the both players are just crashing the vamp and I can't even get closed to this base. And sometimes, when I play human and choose the small base, cuz others are already claimed, my gms being destroyed by bursting gems, which are passed from 5 minis to lich and nosfs and I have no chance either, cuz all human are already dead at 15 min and vamps are so fed that I have no chance to defend. Of'corse it is a matter of my skill failure, but I must admit that the map is not fully balanced, but it's playable and funny.

But today when I was soloing beta (cuz nobody plays it) trying to learn new tech I found it interesting and understood that it's just a problem of "getting used to 1.500f".
I suggest turning off beta bot and changing the map of the main bot to beta at least for a week. We could have a lot of progress in commenting on the new version, which will result in more feedback and changes, so we can see a good balanced map much quicker. The process of testing is so slow now, that I don't even think we can get a fresh new balanced map in the near future.

The community has to decide if WE need a new map or we are satisfied with 1.500f, so the fhf won't waste time on creating a new map or will do it much quicker with the community's help. As FHF usually write "fuck given about the changelog -1=>-5, we have to change this, not him.
Most of the VBL/VBU players here are oldschool, I can agree that it's difficult to accept new things, so it's better for everybody if we decide, do we REALLY need a new vampirism beast map or we can continue playing 1.500f till the map finally dies some time, cuz we rejected the new ideas and thought about the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:40 pm

There is always resistance to changing a map, particularly when people are so entrenched and comfortable with the current version.  As I have played the beta more, I find my enjoyment of it has increased tremendously.

The game play is linear, but I suspect that is an attempt to avoid all the abusive strats we see in 1.5.

On the spike towers, why not increase their range so that they can be outside the aoe of tremble early game?  This would give humans one tower very early on that is a slight deterrent to the vamps.

With regard to the french men/meat wagon, they do seem too strong.

The biggest impediment to testing right now is that there is not a solid group of people that will show up each night to play and will stay there and not wander off.  A lot of you have new skins in this beta version, if you do not help test it, you will not get to play them because the map will never come out. Now THERE is a linear relationship for you.

P.S. With school starting up we have moved the test starting time to 9:00 p.m. EST (one hour earlier).
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:33 pm

opaca wrote:
* frenchman and meatwagon nerfs
Their HP and armor were designed around 1.5, which had higher damage outputs. The nerfs were necessary to keep them on par with 1.505 damage amounts.

Quote :
* too few towers
A fair complaint, but we're getting more towers soon.

Quote :
* uncreative/boring tower models/names (flame tower level 1, flame tower level 2...level 5, as opposed to comet,meteor,star and void beast towers)
They can be renamed and remodeled during a polishing stage, they're placeholders while damage is calculated. Cosmetics always comes last.

Quote :
* new bases all the time, so you have to relearn the map/find a new favorite base
That's a result of gradual balance changes that have occurred. As new ways of basing were used, certain types of bases had to removed (read:myfavorites)When the gold fountain of wealth was added, the number of gold wells required dropped drastically. Therefore, bases could be smaller, which allowed for more bases on the map. E.G. more options. When item/damage balance is completed, the terrain can be finalized. The current terrain is actually hugely overpowered for humans as a result of multiple easy choke points for early abuse.

Quote :
* hammer one shots towers, so you have to place every tower +1000 range, which is very vexing
Hammer only one shots towers at level 1 (same as 1.5), it's boom and burst which can take out higher levels. They HAVE to be able to do that, otherwise the items would be useless trash that nobody would every want to buy. The HP upgrade for towers is designed to be gotten early.

Quote :
* there is only one way you can play human, so new version = cant mess around
I mess around all the time, and found a lot of overpowered stuff while doing it. I suppose it's true to a degree, but the only reason why 1.5 allowed that kind of stuff was because you didn't have to worry too much about losing. Some humans could just annoy the vamps and be dicks with slayers and vests while others tech'd safe behind their giga wall all game. Forcing humans to base is the only way to stop them from abusing a numbers advantage. I know that making players actually PLAY is mind-boggling, but it's necessary.

Quote :
* max of 1 gem building for each color
That's intentional, it's dumb that humans could ignore getting gems until uberlate then just spam out 20 of them for free gems. It's a change that rewards players willing to spend the negligible lumber cost early while punishing players who don't. +1 to skill

Quote :
* tremble one shots spike towers, so you cant have spikes in a spot where they can attack units coming into your base before they are past your wall
That's a good, valid complaint. I think the problem might lie more with tremble as an item being stronger now as a result of its reduced cost, but valid nonetheless.

Quote :
* no more slayer hammers(yes i know these were kinda OP, but maybe add weaker ones)
You still get all the same benefits plus extras that you previously did with the old system, except players can't abuse the best one early. The hammers still exist, just in a less abusable form. +1 to balance
 
Quote :
* passing items does not reset cooldown anymore, so some vamp strategies that required micro/quick fingers are no more
This was designed to balance new, strong items like ring of the hell lords and transmogrifier. The items could just be used endlessly on workers to ruin a humans economy and they could do nothing about it. I don't disagree that some strategies have been removed, however. It's just easier to balance around single cooldowns instead of 4-5. The only strategy I can think of is passing hammer for permastun, and that had been removed long ago anyways.  

Quote :
* changed the position of the vamp shops(why would you do this?)
It moved the shops closer to one another to make building items faster. It was annoying to run around middle lategame when time mattered just to get the items you needed. It also was related to the rescaling of the map to allow for more bases and a safer middle for vampires.

Quote :
* vampire's items lumber cost too high
The Debit Card gives amazing wood income and can be acquired really early. Lumber actually matters as a resource, though, and you can find yourself without any in the case that you don't get the debit.

Quote :
* not many items at citadel of faith, not many items for your human to use
A lot of the human items are being redesigned to make them more valuable. Portable Portals currently serve 0 function with mapwide blink in the game. We have an idea for their remake.
The Wall Healing item (can't remember name) is ridiculously good and I'd like to see more humans using (read:abusing) it.
Shatterstorm is absolutely totally flat broken when used with Corruption and I'm surprised we haven't been forced to nerf it yet.
The only other item that's been removed is Banishing Flute, and I don't need to talk about why that's gone.



A lot of the problems I see are related to the map being incomplete, which is a time/incentive issue more than a map problem. However, there are some good complaints that Mark should probably be made aware of.
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:36 am

deku, you werent supposed to reply to other people's posts

the_deku_nutt wrote:
That's a result of gradual balance changes that have occurred. As new ways of basing were used, certain types of bases had to removed (read:myfavorites)When the gold fountain of wealth was added, the number of gold wells required dropped drastically. Therefore, bases could be smaller, which allowed for more bases on the map. E.G. more options. When item/damage balance is completed, the terrain can be finalized. The current terrain is actually hugely overpowered for humans as a result of multiple easy choke points for early abuse.
and i will continue to dislike having to relearn the terrain, whether there is good reason or not for it. having a map that changes the terrain all the time is a deterrent to regular players, in fact I remember that munkhater chose not to test because he didnt want to have to deal with that

the_deku_nutt wrote:
opaca wrote:
* frenchman and meatwagon nerfs
Their HP and armor were designed around 1.5, which had higher damage outputs. The nerfs were necessary to keep them on par with 1.505 damage amounts.
4 spike towers out-of-tremble-range will always kill the frenchman before the tp is done, provided that it isn't healed. altogether it would be 〜2k lumber to completely stop wall jumping. you also can't use 2 frenchman anymore(1 to tank 1 to tp) because now they cost 3 food. not to mention the 300 chaos damage slayers, which any decent player will blink in to aid

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Quote :
* changed the position of the vamp shops(why would you do this?)
It moved the shops closer to one another to make building items faster. It was annoying to run around middle lategame when time mattered just to get the items you needed. It also was related to the rescaling of the map to allow for more bases and a safer middle for vampires.
he moved them from north to south, he didn't have to do that to bring them closer together. also, because of the hellgate's model, it is harder to see what is going on since it is now facing north

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Quote :
* no more slayer hammers(yes i know these were kinda OP, but maybe add weaker ones)
You still get all the same benefits plus extras that you previously did with the old system, except players can't abuse the best one early. The hammers still exist, just in a less abusable form. +1 to balance
-1 to diversity

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Quote :
* passing items does not reset cooldown anymore, so some vamp strategies that required micro/quick fingers are no more
This was designed to balance new, strong items like ring of the hell lords and transmogrifier. The items could just be used endlessly on workers to ruin a humans economy and they could do nothing about it. I don't disagree that some strategies have been removed, however. It's just easier to balance around single cooldowns instead of 4-5.
he could have made it so those items dont reset when you pass them(boom gem and silent whisper are like this in 1.5), not make everything never reset

the_deku_nutt wrote:
The only strategy I can think of is passing hammer for permastun, and that had been removed long ago anyways.
blasting gem, unholy grave, void beast soulbomb, concotion, mirrorshield, windwalk potion, hammering more than one tower for a wall jump, double tremble slayers, hammering or burst gem a tower down with lich+mini, double tremble walls so that you can sneak shades past(if they have a super fatass it will heal the walls before you can tremble again), double hammering super fatass wall, and more that I can't remember

Quote :
* there is only one way you can play human, so new version = cant mess around
the_deku_nutt wrote:

I mess around all the time, and found a lot of overpowered stuff while doing it. I suppose it's true to a degree, but the only reason why 1.5 allowed that kind of stuff was because you didn't have to worry too much about losing. Some humans could just annoy the vamps and be dicks with slayers and vests while others tech'd safe behind their giga wall all game. Forcing humans to base is the only way to stop them from abusing a numbers advantage. I know that making players actually PLAY is mind-boggling, but it's necessary.  
more balance = less fun, thats what I got from keeping up with the beta anyway. I experienced it get progressively uneventful as newer versions were released and I was given less options/decisions each time. once people figure out the new economy and stop learning, they will probably realize how linear the game has become, and how the only times that you can kill the vampires are in the beginning with your slayer or at the end with spike towers

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:11 am

Since opaca is almost the only one with good reasons and deku is our secondary link to map input I will allow this discussion because I believe for once it is actually getting somewhere. But please no one else join in (unless fhf wishes to comment) Still feel free though to post your reasons for not playing / not liking the beta though.

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:26 am

opaca wrote:
deku, you werent supposed to reply to other people's posts

the_deku_nutt wrote:
That's a result of gradual balance changes that have occurred. As new ways of basing were used, certain types of bases had to removed (read:myfavorites)When the gold fountain of wealth was added, the number of gold wells required dropped drastically. Therefore, bases could be smaller, which allowed for more bases on the map. E.G. more options. When item/damage balance is completed, the terrain can be finalized. The current terrain is actually hugely overpowered for humans as a result of multiple easy choke points for early abuse.
and i will continue to dislike having to relearn the terrain, whether there is good reason or not for it. having a map that changes the terrain all the time is a deterrent to regular players, in fact I remember that munkhater chose not to test because he didnt want to have to deal with that

the_deku_nutt wrote:
opaca wrote:
* frenchman and meatwagon nerfs
Their HP and armor were designed around 1.5, which had higher damage outputs. The nerfs were necessary to keep them on par with 1.505 damage amounts.
4 spike towers out-of-tremble-range will always kill the frenchman before the tp is done, provided that it isn't healed. altogether it would be 〜2k lumber to completely stop wall jumping. you also can't use 2 frenchman anymore(1 to tank 1 to tp) because now they cost 3 food. not to mention the 300 chaos damage slayers, which any decent player will blink in to aid

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Quote :
* changed the position of the vamp shops(why would you do this?)
It moved the shops closer to one another to make building items faster. It was annoying to run around middle lategame when time mattered just to get the items you needed. It also was related to the rescaling of the map to allow for more bases and a safer middle for vampires.
he moved them from north to south, he didn't have to do that to bring them closer together. also, because of the hellgate's model, it is harder to see what is going on since it is now facing north

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Quote :
* no more slayer hammers(yes i know these were kinda OP, but maybe add weaker ones)
You still get all the same benefits plus extras that you previously did with the old system, except players can't abuse the best one early. The hammers still exist, just in a less abusable form. +1 to balance
-1 to diversity

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Quote :
* passing items does not reset cooldown anymore, so some vamp strategies that required micro/quick fingers are no more
This was designed to balance new, strong items like ring of the hell lords and transmogrifier. The items could just be used endlessly on workers to ruin a humans economy and they could do nothing about it. I don't disagree that some strategies have been removed, however. It's just easier to balance around single cooldowns instead of 4-5.
he could have made it so those items dont reset when you pass them(boom gem and silent whisper are like this in 1.5), not make everything never reset

the_deku_nutt wrote:
The only strategy I can think of is passing hammer for permastun, and that had been removed long ago anyways.
blasting gem, unholy grave, void beast soulbomb, concotion, mirrorshield, windwalk potion, hammering more than one tower for a wall jump, double tremble slayers, hammering or burst gem a tower down with lich+mini, double tremble walls so that you can sneak shades past(if they have a super fatass it will heal the walls before you can tremble again), double hammering super fatass wall, and more that I can't remember

Quote :
* there is only one way you can play human, so new version = cant mess around
the_deku_nutt wrote:

I mess around all the time, and found a lot of overpowered stuff while doing it. I suppose it's true to a degree, but the only reason why 1.5 allowed that kind of stuff was because you didn't have to worry too much about losing. Some humans could just annoy the vamps and be dicks with slayers and vests while others tech'd safe behind their giga wall all game. Forcing humans to base is the only way to stop them from abusing a numbers advantage. I know that making players actually PLAY is mind-boggling, but it's necessary.  
more balance = less fun, thats what I got from keeping up with the beta anyway. I experienced it get progressively uneventful as newer versions were released and I was given less options/decisions each time. once people figure out the new economy and stop learning, they will probably realize how linear the game has become, and how the only times that you can kill the vampires are in the beginning with your slayer or at the end with spike towers
Do not continue to discuss any marked out topics"

Terrain change no way around that.

1)Frenchman op early game useless mid game. (still a valid point)

2)While the shops are closer the middle just looks poorly design. (not trying to offend) it looks like the shops were set up for the beta and then copy pasted the rest of
the middle from 1.5 leaving a big awkward open space.

3)Slayer Hammers, in all honesty opaca has a valid point here. It does cause the game to lack diversity sine everyone is the same

4) Shared cds does cause lot of 1.5 vamp strats to be lost, Yet many more were added so this is balanced as a beta can be.

5)Can only kill the vamps at beginning and end of the game. (I'm split on this on so ill leave it up)
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:50 am

as a survival-esque game, the vamps should be near impossible to kill in the early game, and increasing in vulnerability as time goes on until the end game in which they have no chance.

EDIT: and also note that another survival game called "Trolls and Elves" have a very simple balancing/scaling system, and yet is still fun to play.
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:40 pm

Quote :
"The process of testing is so slow now, that I don't even think we can get a fresh new balanced map in the near future."
right

Quote :
do we REALLY need a new vampirism beast map or we can continue playing 1.500f till the map finally dies some time, cuz we rejected the new ideas and thought about the game.
right

Quote :
as a survival-esque game, the vamps should be near impossible to kill in the early game, and increasing in vulnerability as time goes on until the end game in which they have no chance.
very right

czydude wrote:
EDIT: and also note that another survival game called "Trolls and Elves" have a very simple balancing/scaling system, and yet is still fun to play.
i dont get how this game could be fun, seriously this is pure shit. I found this game in its early stage, i even think it was a french map, and after vampirism beast/fire or island defense, this map is like playing draughts after having played chess for years...

czydude wrote:
not enough pubs playing
This is the most important thing, which leads to :
I never tested the beta but i didn't think it was so different from the 1.500 lol
My suggestions on the other thread were for 1.500 not for the beta xD so it may not suit it


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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:46 pm

Triton144 wrote:
3)Slayer Hammers, in all honesty opaca has a valid point here. It does cause the game to lack diversity sine everyone is the same
Prosperity hammer was the one true hammer. The other options just weren't as good. I wouldn't call it diversity when prosperity hammer was picked up 95%+ of the time.

SucksLikeAVacuumCleaner McInnovationStifler wrote:
Since opaca is almost the only one with good reasons and deku is our secondary link to map input I will allow this discussion because I believe for once it is actually getting somewhere. But please no one else join in (unless fhf wishes to comment) Still feel free though to post your reasons for not playing / not liking the beta though.
I'd rather have the discussion be open. With how little feedback i get on the map I'd rather not reduce it. I know humans are a lot more linear than I want them to be right now, often with the excuse of trying to find some balance before adding in the crazy wombo combos. I don't have much to work with, 1.5 wasn't all that non-linear. It just appeared to have a lot of options because fucking around had such a super low risk.

Still can't take El Mirador le Opaca wrote:
* changed the position of the vamp shops(why would you do this?)
Mostly to make middle more compact to give more room for bases. Having a huge middle will more likely cause the inner bases to be weaker than they already are due to room constrictions. Yes, I did expand the map somewhat, but this was far after the shop change and the playable map size hasn't changed. The shop change shouldn't be a big deal. If you follow the philosophy of keeping something some way because it was always that way then the root of some problems will never go away. This is such a small and neutral change it is funny that it was brought up.

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:14 pm

The biggest reason right now for lack of diversity is the whole 10 team construct. I've been thinking of maybe making it more of an 8v4, but I don't know if I've built a dam high enough to contain all of the tears. In all honesty, it is really hard to make something that is useful for 1 person, but not overpowered if 5 or 10 people use it in moderate conjunction. If I make something useful for 1 person then I generally have to put restrictions on it like the towers (not being able to tower for someone else etc.) and people get feisty about how the restrictions are arbitrary or make no sense. If something is more balanced around a number of people using it then people will complain that it is useless because teamwork doesn't happen. It seems to be a lose-lose for me.

In 1.5 if you decided to tower for someone they were functionally invulnerable. They could play super greedy and get t4 even earlier than normal. 2 people working together give the vamps no chance to win on top of their already abysmal chances if you ignore outliers.

As far as the whole 8v4 thing would go, I would probably keep 2 nosf and have the other two spawn in as either a mini or a new type of vampire. Can't have any of that quad-chain nonsense. It would then be easier to add in more powerful options for humans because the vamps wont be as heavily outnumbered.

Quote :
The community has to decide if WE need a new map or we are satisfied with 1.500f, so the fhf won't waste time on creating a new map or will do it much quicker with the community's help. As FHF usually write "fuck given about the changelog -1=>-5, we have to change this, not him.
Most of the VBL/VBU players here are oldschool, I can agree that it's difficult to accept new things, so it's better for everybody if we decide, do we REALLY need a new vampirism beast map or we can continue playing 1.500f till the map finally dies some time, cuz we rejected the new ideas and thought about the game.
The fucks given is mostly a satire about how petty random drama gets discussed while there is almost 0 input on the map. Don't take it too seriously. Once you get to a certain level of play you'll probably find 1.5f to be very boring and auto-win. 99% of my games in 1.5f consisted of me fucking around in some random corner of the map for 30-40 minutes until an enemy hero walked in front of my base and died. I'm not even making this up. Even when someone good vamps the humans will still win if they want to win barring outliers. If you don't like the new version then don't play it. No one is taking 1.5f away from you. Don't use the whole "we rejected." Some people rejected. However, there are still enough people who like the new version more than 1.5 even though it is unpolished due to the huge changes made in hopes of balancing things.

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:14 pm

fhf wrote:
I know humans are a lot more linear than I want them to be right now, often with the excuse of trying to find some balance before adding in the crazy wombo combos.
As a person who has made a game on makemaker for a small project, i can agree with this. Balance and core before content
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:14 pm

fhf wrote:
SucksLikeAVacuumCleaner McInnovationStifler wrote:
Since opaca is almost the only one with good reasons and deku is our secondary link to map input I will allow this discussion because I believe for once it is actually getting somewhere. But please no one else join in (unless fhf wishes to comment) Still feel free though to post your reasons for not playing / not liking the beta though.
I'd rather have the discussion be open. With how little feedback i get on the map I'd rather not reduce it. I know humans are a lot more linear than I want them to be right now, often with the excuse of trying to find some balance before adding in the crazy wombo combos. I don't have much to work with, 1.5 wasn't all that non-linear. It just appeared to have a lot of options because fucking around had such a super low risk.
I was gonna keep this on closed because we already have a discussion forum but I will open this since you think it will be beneficial.

Also why not make the middle feel like its made for this map it's still all awkward with the blight and circle up by itself and the shops divided on the right by trees.( but understand I do realize this is not a pressing issue)
And as to the prosperity hammer why not just balance the other hammers to make them a more viable option?

I'm open to the 8v4 but take into account you will have to basically start over on balancing
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:06 pm

there's only 2 ways to play the game now
either you base or you don't and you move from base to base
nosf roles have stayed the same cause if u troll as nosf shit = autopermaban

realize how MORE uninteresting you guys have made the map
just because you guys add/change items doesn't make the map more interesting

tbh just change terrain on 1.5 remove some items and gg wp u guys got a new map
remove armys/sheepstick/etc don't care enough to post everything i feel needs to be removed
change tower dmgs/fix some glitches win game

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:08 pm

the map has become too linear - trick2maid

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:10 pm

comelate wrote:
nosf roles have stayed the same cause if u troll as nosf shit = autopermaban
Ok, Comelate, you lost me here.... what autopermaban?
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:44 am

One of the things that keeps pubs from playing is possibly the fact that when we have lots of inhouse members joining, we usually end up booting the pubs from the game. Either that, or delaying the start cuz we have to wait for somebody we know. And some of these guys have probably been waiting in lobby for quite a while. This could be a factor.
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:29 pm

comelate wrote:


tbh just change terrain on 1.5 remove some items and gg wp u guys got a new map
remove armys/sheepstick/etc don't care enough to post everything i feel needs to be removed
change tower dmgs/fix some glitches win game

I'm going to address this as best I can in the bluntest way possible. The new map is EXACTLY what you've described you would like to see in your post. Armies have been removed, new terrain has been added, sheepstick has been reworked, the blatantly overpowered human stuff has either been nerfed (slayers) or removed entirely (banish).

Tower damage has been standardized by making everything HP based rather than having everything with 5,000000 armor and 2000000000000000 HP. Numbers have been toned down to relative levels that people can look at and actually compute. This makes balance much easier to achieve with no funny business left over.

The game has been entirely rewritten into JASS, with no GUI triggers remaining, which means glitches are a remote possibility. If any crop up, they're easy and quick to fix with little hassle.

There was a lot of stuff in 1.5 that wasn't very intuitive. Why did the super worker build the ultra research center? Why was the ultra research center functionally useless outside of a few outlier troll strategies? All the tech, towers, and walls have been placed into a single building which makes it easier for new players to find what they need.


The complaint that gameplay is too linear is valid. That being said, the old version is JUST as linear. The only difference is that in 1.5 you could run around as a human manaburning for funsies, and at the end of the game your human was still a huge threat because LOL banish flute. There was only the appearance of options because literally everything the humans could do was ridiculously effective at making the vamps lose more.


It would be impossible to actually balance 1.500f. There are glitches in the game that the community still doesn't know about that are about as broken as rending battleslayers. As I've said for years, when humans DECIDE to win in 1.500f, they win.
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:02 pm

1.5 is definitely not linear like the beta, don't fool yourself, or in this case, try to fool the others
you have MANY ways to all-in, and in the beta you don't

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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:38 pm

opaca wrote:
1.5 is definitely not linear like the beta, don't fool yourself, or in this case, try to fool the others
you have MANY ways to all-in, and in the beta you don't
He's right you know about all ins.

And the main thing that makes the beta so linear compared to 1.5 is the tower limit/diversity. There's no "Hmm...should I get another tower? and if so what kind should I make If I get an ulti I can slow him but if I go manas he'll have less sustain, but if I get a flame or two I can try to dps him off my wall. or maybe ill play risky and up spikes and maybe 2 manas and once I cc I'll rush a metoer for cripple. But wait what if I get the spikes upgrade and spam spread out spikes so his blasting gem has little affect Or I could get a exor tower right as he's leaving cause he didn't sight and try to get that kill cause he's bad. Nah I think I'll stack graves,ulti,orb,exor for massive slow combine with castles. But wait he's trying to blast gold mines so ill spam manas around the edges. while I was preventing blasting gem he got enough for cc and armor now I need to get few more meteors to keep him crippled. Ok I finally spired do I go for beastly spikes or stars for the upped cripple. He has a conc to cancel cripple from my star if i get one so ill pop an oracle to get high lv dps quicker but lose cripple."

See you just lose a whole lot of situational stuff all it is now is make lv 1 wall, make lv 1 tower x3, make lv 2 wall, make lv 2 tower times x3, make lv 4 wall, make lv 4 tower. WAIT WHATS THATS YOU RUSHED LV 5 TOWERS!!!! BEFORE LV 5 WALL well it gives very little benefits good try though thinking outside the box... or should I say line

That said I still find the beta entertaining just bland compared to 1.5f
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PostSubject: Re: Why don't you play the beta?   Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:38 pm

You're creating comparisons that are meaningless. In 1.5, you build mana towers and "damage tower X". It doesn't matter if it's flames or spikes or uber ultimates. You spam 2-3 of your choice and just let them autoattack. I spent like 2 months just massing lightning oracles, which are completely cost-inefficient. I did it for fun because it doesn't matter.

Most of the time, if humans have an actual risk of losing for some reason, you just build a disaster tower and some manas and you're basically unkillable barring outliers. The choices you're touting as important and meaningful don't actually exist as far as winning the game is concerned. It's just icing to make human play appear interesting while you do nothing.

In the new version, gameplay is about managing a lot of small things at once while the vamps attack you. You have to focus on your lifebank, your repairers, your workers in case of ring, your towers in case of ranged items. You're expected to micromanage multiple aspects of play, and that's where the fun lies. In 1.5 the fun lies in trolling, as I well know.

I think that a lot of humans aren't even attempting to try innovative things. Everyone just rushes mapwide spikes because it's easy and safe. Maybe the post-tier4 timings are still too fast and giving humans a lull period where vamps can't do much to address them which makes mapwides the best strategy.

I'd like to finish by pointing out that there are still lots of features that haven't been added due to time constraints and/or opaca not coming up with names for them. We're aware that the gameplay doesn't have a lot of options for humans, but it has all the same options that 1.5 has, except the options actually impact gameplay in a meaningful way. More stuff is going to be added Soon (tm)
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