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 Map Direction

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Triton144
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PostSubject: Map Direction   Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:45 pm

These are our starting goals for the map. As we continue to implement these and develop the map we will release smaller logs of what has been updated.
--------------
Coding Related Changes
***********************
Battle slayer
Reduce Battle slayer aura and change tech tree
Remove Bslayer aura's ability to rend
//Tech tree needs to be changed to prevent people from buying the slayer hammer and killing their base

-Blasting goldmines Fix
//Considering making BGem not ricochet when targeted on goldmines
nerfing it without removing it

-Fix Toming Towers

-Vamp leaving Before Spawn no longer causes the game to end

-Cancelling Gold Wells will not produce negative gold anymore

-Leaving with a charmed lich will not cause it to be permanently lost

-Patch roar glitch

-Charmed lich can no longer enter the graveyard

-Add Drop Gem ability to Towers with inventory



Item/Unit Related Changes
********************
-Reduce vest damage

-Remove tent attack

-Relocate Soulbomb to grave area

-Remove Feed Blocks from Ubers and lower

-Remove Glitched Skins

-Added Hotkey for converting lumber

-Fix Hotkey for manaburn

-Add Beta Skins

-Vamps Can no longer Pick up vault items

-Lower Cost of whisper of the shadow beast

-Disaster no longer fires while bouncers are out

-Remove harvester attack

-Lower Refresh pot cost/cd

-Buff starting drops: Guantlets & health pot & ring of regen

-Fix Slayers not being removed upon leaving the game


Terrain Changes
***************
-Fix pathing at Unholy graves to prevent humans buying items

-Fix Abom jump in affected bases


Other Changes (Need ideas on these)
**************

-counter to mass unholies-- at bases without deafeating the point of unholying mid

-Fix multiple flutes at base

-Delay Humans ability to buy forge items 30s - 1min
//Giving vamps the chance if they have the money to purchase the items

-Slayers cannot buy str, agi, int, or tomes of deaths



----------------------------------------------------------
Planned Updates after fixing bugs
*********************************
-Mirror lv 2 Recipie, mirror + conc

-Shards stack without taking up more slots


Let me know your thoughts on these so I can better improve and fix the map.

~Triton144


Last edited by Triton144 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:08 am

Should be fun to test and see how things work with all the changes. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:37 am

new version ?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:25 am

Triton144 wrote:
-Blasting goldmines Fix
//Considering making BGem not ricochet when targeted on goldmines
nerfing it without removing it

Genius!

Triton144 wrote:
-Mirror lv 2 Recipie, mirror + conc

-Shards stack without taking up more slots

Even more genius!

Triton144 wrote:
Cancelling Gold Wells will not produce negative gold anymore

You could also make gold wells summoned like gold mines. That would also solve the problem of having not being able to put a gm in a tight place.

Triton144 wrote:
Fix multiple flutes at base

Maybe make it that you can only use banish if you are in your own claimed base. I know this would open up possible abuse in the form of switching claims in a base, but you could just make it a rule that you can't do that... Sorta like how you can't claim someone elses base and oust them to deny feed.

Triton144 wrote:
Charmed lich can no longer enter the graveyard

I believe this one could be up for debate. Charming a lich is a very risky thing to do as it involves using your human to go in close. I think that this makes it a balanced tactic.

Triton144 wrote:
Delay Humans ability to buy forge items 30s - 1min
//Giving vamps the chance if they have the money to purchase the items

Make it more like 5 mins! A slayer with shard is pretty much as strong as a nosf with a shard. Not only that, but buying out recipes is so freaking op haha.

A few ideas from my end:

- Fix star towers, make their damage proportional to their price and make them get effected by mirror or whatever that glitch was.
- Fix the terrain areas where the trees are miss placed by one click.
- Not sure if this would be an easy one, but maybe fixing that damn glitch where your gold fountain turns itself off -.-
- Remove holy slayer from slayers tavern
- Make the wood - gold transfer a one click button rather than a research, like in 1.505.
- REMOVE OR FIX HOLY FLAME TOWER!!!!!!! <-----------------
- Make it so you can only build in your own claimed base. Yes, this means no more towering for anyone - it'd be better that way.
- Fix the bouncers cool down (when you pop bouncers, the cooldown starts counting at 2/3 of the way around, making it harder to judge how much longer is left. Plus the cool down isn't really 13 mins... is it?)

The list of small shit that's been bugging me since I started playing, but isn't really important....

- 'Village House' to 'Lumber House' upgrade hotkey 'L'
- 'Lumber House' to 'Deforestation House' upgrade hotkey 'D'
- Change the 'Ultra Research Center' 'Slayer Army Training' hotkey to 'A' as 'S' is already taken by 'Super Worker' (may as well add a hotkey for the slayer upgrade )
- MAKE THE SPIRE BUILDING AN EVEN NUMBER OF CLICKS!!!!! <-----------------------------------
- Hotkeys for all the vault items and slayer hammer upgrades (sometimes that shit needs to be brought in a hurry and clicking a small icon isn't a hurry)
- 'Command Center' on 'Super Tower Builder' has the hotkey 'R' at the moment, but doesn't actually say it so not allot of people will know it
- Fix the hotkeys in 'Command Center' (The freaking super tower builder has the same hotkey as the wood worker -_-")
- Add hotkey for 'Beast Spire' building on 'Super Uber Tower Builder'
- Fix a few hokeys in the 'Beast Spire' building
- You could possibly fix the hotkeys for the vamp, but that's not very important because vamps hardly have to buy items while 'under pressure'


I think there is a million things in this version that will come to mind as broken in the next 24 hours :/

Real cool to see this finally happening haha.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:58 pm

Emo.Donky wrote:
You could also make gold wells summoned like gold mines. That would also solve the problem of having not being able to put a gm in a tight place.

Yeah this would be the best way.

Emo.Donky wrote:

Maybe make it that you can only use banish if you are in your own claimed base. I know this would open up possible abuse in the form of switching claims in a base, but you could just make it a rule that you can't do that... Sorta like how you can't claim someone elses base and oust them to deny feed.
Hmm... well the main problem is we are working with obfuscated code so implementing this would be excruciatingly painful. I'll try to think about this.

Emo.Donky wrote:

I believe this one could be up for debate. Charming a lich is a very risky thing to do as it involves using your human to go in close. I think that this makes it a balanced tactic.

This is to prevent people charming lich and grabbing the items the vamp has laid on the ground. He has no place to leave items like the hammer w/o fear of a human (especially in an inhouse) running and grabbing them.

Emo.Donky wrote:

Make it more like 5 mins! A slayer with shard is pretty much as strong as a nosf with a shard. Not only that, but buying out recipes is so freaking op haha.

The point here is to keep the humans from stopping the nosf from getting shards or spinner at the forge when he has the gold. If the nosf doesn't have the gold there is no reason the humans shouldn't be able to buy the items because it is no longer taking away his ability to purchase the item.

Emo.Donky wrote:

A few ideas from my end:

- Fix star towers, make their damage proportional to their price and make them get effected by mirror or whatever that glitch was.
- Fix the terrain areas where the trees are miss placed by one click.
- Not sure if this would be an easy one, but maybe fixing that damn glitch where your gold fountain turns itself off -.-
- Remove holy slayer from slayers tavern
- Make the wood - gold transfer a one click button rather than a research, like in 1.505.
- REMOVE OR FIX HOLY FLAME TOWER!!!!!!! <-----------------
- Make it so you can only build in your own claimed base. Yes, this means no more towering for anyone - it'd be better that way.
- Fix the bouncers cool down (when you pop bouncers, the cooldown starts counting at 2/3 of the way around, making it harder to judge how much longer is left. Plus the cool down isn't really 13 mins... is it?)

The list of small shit that's been bugging me since I started playing, but isn't really important....

- 'Village House' to 'Lumber House' upgrade hotkey 'L'
- 'Lumber House' to 'Deforestation House' upgrade hotkey 'D'
- Change the 'Ultra Research Center' 'Slayer Army Training' hotkey to 'A' as 'S' is already taken by 'Super Worker' (may as well add a hotkey for the slayer upgrade )
- MAKE THE SPIRE BUILDING AN EVEN NUMBER OF CLICKS!!!!! <-----------------------------------
- Hotkeys for all the vault items and slayer hammer upgrades (sometimes that shit needs to be brought in a hurry and clicking a small icon isn't a hurry)
- 'Command Center' on 'Super Tower Builder' has the hotkey 'R' at the moment, but doesn't actually say it so not allot of people will know it
- Fix the hotkeys in 'Command Center' (The freaking super tower builder has the same hotkey as the wood worker -_-")
- Add hotkey for 'Beast Spire' building on 'Super Uber Tower Builder'
- Fix a few hokeys in the 'Beast Spire' building
- You could possibly fix the hotkeys for the vamp, but that's not very important because vamps hardly have to buy items while 'under pressure'


I think there is a million things in this version that will come to mind as broken in the next 24 hours :/

Real cool to see this finally happening haha.

I believe star tower glitch was it makes mirror proc on them and they don't die while mirror never hits the workers. This will be tough to fix...I'll have to see
Do you want the 2 trees fixed? lol it's kinda like an easter egg, but if most people want it changed I will. I don't really see that it gives any kind of unfair status.
Fountain turning off is a result of wc3's mechanics cannot be fixed.
Gold to Lumber is now instant
I need to see why the holy flame tower lags exactly but I will either fix it or change the animation.
Towering others cannot be fixed without messing up the rest of the game....sorry
I'll Fix all the Hotkeys just keep posting them if you think of more.

PS: i was kinda hoping that Deku would eventually provide some input he always has the most wonderful things to add!  Laughing 
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:44 pm

Triton144 wrote:


PS: i was kinda hoping that Deku would eventually provide some input he always has the most wonderful things to add!  Laughing 

Nobody wants me to give input because if it were followed everybody would get butthurt. Make your game how you want.


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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:21 pm

Emo.Donky wrote:

You could also make gold wells summoned like gold mines. That would also solve the problem of having not being able to put a gm in a tight place.

Vamp with micro-mad-skill can blow your gold well with hammer :3, should we put it as a reward for him ?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:48 pm

Ok question: Emo said maybe add vamp item hotkeys? How many people would use that and if so would you want them on a grid or by name?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:42 am

popopxD wrote:
Emo.Donky wrote:

You could also make gold wells summoned like gold mines. That would also solve the problem of having not being able to put a gm in a tight place.

Vamp with micro-mad-skill can blow your gold well with hammer :3, should we put it as a reward for him ?

Just make the summoned HP 2500, that solves the problem.

#solvingproblems#toplevelsuggestions

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:27 pm

the_deku_nutt wrote:
popopxD wrote:
Emo.Donky wrote:

You could also make gold wells summoned like gold mines. That would also solve the problem of having not being able to put a gm in a tight place.

Vamp with micro-mad-skill can blow your gold well with hammer :3, should we put it as a reward for him ?

Just make the summoned HP 2500, that solves the problem.

#solvingproblems#toplevelsuggestions

I told you this guys a genius! #TheNutt
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:58 pm

Triton144 wrote:
the_deku_nutt wrote:
popopxD wrote:
Emo.Donky wrote:

You could also make gold wells summoned like gold mines. That would also solve the problem of having not being able to put a gm in a tight place.

Vamp with micro-mad-skill can blow your gold well with hammer :3, should we put it as a reward for him ?

Just make the summoned HP 2500, that solves the problem.

#solvingproblems#toplevelsuggestions

I told you this guys a genius! #TheNutt

I can fix 1.5 for you, but I'm warning you, it'll be way too close to balanced and people will cry.

Oh and I demand a Map Developer forum tag. A green one. And instead of Map Developer it has to say Nutt Developer.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:44 am

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Triton144 wrote:
the_deku_nutt wrote:
popopxD wrote:
Emo.Donky wrote:

You could also make gold wells summoned like gold mines. That would also solve the problem of having not being able to put a gm in a tight place.

Vamp with micro-mad-skill can blow your gold well with hammer :3, should we put it as a reward for him ?

Just make the summoned HP 2500, that solves the problem.

#solvingproblems#toplevelsuggestions

I told you this guys a genius! #TheNutt

I can fix 1.5 for you, but I'm warning you, it'll be way too close to balanced and people will cry.

Oh and I demand a Map Developer forum tag. A green one. And instead of Map Developer it has to say Nutt Developer.

and the giant penis skin
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:31 pm

I'm bored at work so I'm going to take an opportunity to enlighten some people of a few facts.

The tier 4 economy timings

This is one of the more important issues that needs addressing. Its not uncommon nowadays to see multiple humans achieving 7-9 minute command centers against competent players. Vamps cant deal with that, period. Not opaca, not me, not frozen. This is the most figured out version of vb ever, humans can just mitigate most threat.The best way to play is to be greedy as possible until tier 4 because everything before then pales in comparison to what you gain. Earlier researches need to be desirable, or tier 4 needs to be less of an economy reset.

Tower values relative to armor
In dota, I can calculate damage reduction from atmor fairly quickly and easily. The same can't be said for vamp beast. Everything has a shitload of hp and astronomical armor values. Everything needs to scale more smoothly. The progression of damage from tier to tier shouldn't spike so hard. By the time vamps can buy beastbane so they can attack a tier 4 base, humans can have 8+ meteors and manas and the base is untouchable.

Lategame vampire options

Buying out recipes has to stop. Period. Set all items to a 5 second restock timer and be done.
Mana towers+godly castles is too relevant lategame. Between the clusterfuck of half built castles and workers vamps cant get to walls even remotely fast enough. Place a restriction on the number of castles equal to the highest number of sphere spots in the most vulnerable single base. Or just restict them to inside base only.

Multiple humans in a single base.
My name is johnny dipshit and I lack the capacity to tech and maintain defense at the same time. Ill just get my friend Asswipe to tower for me and pull leaks. When he gets some gold he can be a dick with his slayer. When/if it goes lategame, he can banish and repair bolt for me too!

Not only does this make one base functionally immune to attack, it reduces the overall available farm by a whole human. Thats a human that isn't contributing to the pool of farm. The game is driven by how much vamps are able to perform. If half the humans in the game don't base, then its basically a 5vs2 only the 5 are twice as strong and the 2 half as fed.

I'm tired of typing on my phone, so ill edit this later.



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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:22 pm

buff frenchman

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:08 pm

opaca wrote:
buff frenchman


Any nerf to slayers is a buff to frenchmen.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:37 pm

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Any nerf to slayers is a buff to frenchmen.
in the "old" beta version you could make slayers do 0 damage and frenchman would still not work
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:47 pm

opaca wrote:
the_deku_nutt wrote:
Any nerf to slayers is a buff to frenchmen.
in the "old" beta version you could make slayers do 0 damage and frenchman would still not work

You're just mad.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:52 pm

I'd like to point out that all every single one of these suggested changes have already been implemented in the /ded/ beta, just in case you all forgot.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:15 pm

the_deku_nutt wrote:
I'm bored at work so I'm going to take an opportunity to enlighten some people of a few facts.

The tier 4 economy timings  

This is one of the more important issues that needs addressing. Its not uncommon nowadays to see multiple humans achieving 7-9 minute command centers against competent players. Vamps cant deal with that, period. Not opaca, not me, not frozen. This is the most figured out version of vb ever, humans can just mitigate most threat.The best way to play is to be greedy as possible until tier 4 because everything before then pales in comparison to what you gain. Earlier researches need to be desirable, or tier 4 needs to be less of an economy reset.

Biggest problem here is human are not forced to build towers and vamps cannot attempt to farm/break people for fear of the slayerman. Like you said play greedy as possible and if worse comes to worse one player blsayers for the team or you make a disaster tower out of range. I believe vamps will be able to force 5-7 min cc's on leaked players and 2-5 on no leaked players if they don't have the fear of being killed when they break someone, So I am going to start by fixing the bslayer and nerfing vests, run a few inhouse test games and see what cc times the humans get and go from there.

the_deku_nutt wrote:

Tower values relative to armor
In dota, I can calculate damage reduction from atmor fairly quickly and easily. The same can't be said for vamp beast. Everything has a shitload of hp and astronomical armor values. Everything needs to scale more smoothly. The progression of damage from tier to tier shouldn't spike so hard. By the time vamps can buy beastbane so they can attack a tier 4 base, humans can have 8+ meteors and manas and the base is untouchable.

For this I have lowered the cost and cd of the refresh pot and the price of whisper of the shadow beast making them cost relative to the game like in the beta. One big problem is when a player jumps a tier he has a 1-2min window where he is god of the map. This should allow the vamp not to be trapped and has a means of tanking the higher dps jumps at each tech from early to mid game, but again I will try this and look at what kind of sustain the vamps have and go from there.

the_deku_nutt wrote:

Lategame vampire options

Buying out recipes has to stop. Period. Set all items to a 5 second restock timer and be done.
Mana towers+godly castles is too relevant lategame. Between the clusterfuck of half built castles and workers vamps cant get to walls even remotely fast enough. Place a restriction on the number of castles equal to the highest number of sphere spots in the  most vulnerable single base. Or just restict them to inside base only.

The forge is now an team 2 ally only shop for the first 1 min after opening. 1.5 unlike the new version is based around DoT and without the sustain they can't deal this damage. Most cases the vamp has enough money late game but cannot do anything with it b/c he is limited by inventory spaces. Idea is to add shard recipie which combines shards and second the mirror lv 2 from the beta which adds conc to mirror. This will in theory let the vamps be able to buy enough sustain with their gold as well as make onslaught useful item because they can now carry it without giving up a slot to put sustain. As far as castle/manas while this is op vs a single vamp it isn't nearly as op vs 2 vamps. Especially when given the vamps will be able to sit on the wall longer.

the_deku_nutt wrote:

Multiple humans in a single base.
My name is johnny dipshit and I lack the capacity to tech and maintain defense at the same time. Ill just get my friend Asswipe to tower for me and pull leaks. When he gets some gold he can be a dick with his slayer. When/if it goes lategame, he can banish and repair bolt for me too!

Not only does this make one base functionally immune to attack, it reduces the overall available farm by a whole human. Thats a human that isn't contributing to the pool of farm. The game is driven by how much vamps are able to perform. If half the humans in the game don't base, then its basically a 5vs2 only the 5 are twice as strong and the 2 half as fed.
Yes this is an issue I have not found a solution to yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:21 pm

Humans can't build in a base they haven't claimed, simple as that. If players don't like it they can 1.5 imo.


And making the forge vampires only for a single minute solves nothing. I can still slow vampires down really hard with the power of color priority. Buying out whisper or shards recipe nets you 45-1:00 of extra time each time you do it. Just out the half baked measures if you're intetested in fixing it.


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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:52 pm

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Humans can't build in a base they haven't claimed, simple as that. If players don't like it they can 1.5 imo.


And making the forge vampires only for a single minute solves nothing. I can still slow vampires down really hard with the power of color priority. Buying out whisper or shards recipe nets you 45-1:00 of extra time each time you do it. Just out the half baked measures if you're intetested in fixing it.


I could just lower cloak and whisper cooldown. So you can't slow the cape or onslaught. Removing the cooldowns at the forge is a huge buff to the humans. And considering that buyouts are fixed it's only a minor buff to the vamps.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:09 pm

Humans don't suffer from the same time constraints vampires do. A single minute to a human, while important, isn't gamebreaking. If multiple humans intend to buy forge items, then they're going to do it regardless of time constraints. A minute to the vampires, however, is extremely important.

Either way, do it however you feel is necessary. I'll find something to abuse when it gets tested, and it'll get fixed in the end anyways.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:25 pm

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Humans don't suffer from the same time constraints vampires do. A single minute to a human, while important, isn't gamebreaking. If multiple humans intend to buy forge items, then they're going to do it regardless of time constraints. A minute to the vampires, however, is extremely important.

Either way, do it however you feel is necessary. I'll find something to abuse when it gets tested, and it'll get fixed in the end anyways.

Should spend more time developing an Anti MH for me.
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Join date : 2013-07-20

PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:24 pm

Triton144 wrote:
Should spend more time developing an Anti MH for me.


You're living in a dream land. You could make a dummy unit that, if seen, results in a memory overflow that crashes warcraft 3. The simple workaround for hackers is just make the MH minimap only, which wouldn't force vision of it. Maybe if you could make every player force click the unit at start you'd have something, but I don't know enough to speculate on how feasible that might be.

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Triton144
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Battle.net Name : Triton144
Posts : 389
Join date : 2013-05-21
Age : 21
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:21 am

mh's can turn off clicks which would result in the same click for mhers and non mhers alike. There's an engine that's supposed to remove items from the screen similar to the way a replay can remove them, but I don't have the knowledge to get it to work if it still even does. http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?s=ed0064f0a7a08a9e94634b8383acfb0a&t=97922

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