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 Map Direction

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popopxD
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:46 pm

When I wanted to focus on someone as nosf or when I have been focused by someone, 20~25 sec is way too short. waiting for just 20 sec, hanging around to grave the nearest base and come back at the end of the bouncer duration.

45 sec bouncer always a deal for me, if I want to continue to attack other people or just hanging around there to aim that one. That's just mine idea because as a vamp, I think 20 sec wont be a deal for me. I will just sit and wait.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:26 pm

no idea what you just said but making it shorter duration will allow people who get greedy with the 9 minute mine not able to upgrade their wall 20 seconds into the pandas being released

i do not think you know what you are talking about popopxd

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:29 pm

comelate wrote:
no idea what you just said but making it shorter duration will allow people who get greedy with the 9 minute mine not able to upgrade their wall 20 seconds into the pandas being released

i do not think you know what you are talking about popopxd

I didnt know what you are talking about. If you meant the greedy people, u should said that at the first time, like.... make the wall upgrade longer, But there are way to deal with greedy people: the rain of inferno will blast it. But it cost too much (75 gold) so we can find another way to nerf it.



Last edited by popopxD on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:44 pm; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:36 pm

rain of inferno doesn't work, you would need 2 rains of inferno.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:02 pm

comelate wrote:

remove useless crap/ blue orb crap in slayer tavern, etc
remove army lol so broken
It's a lot more interesting to rework things than removing them. I can probably come up with something, but I've noticed that suggesting changes which result in making entities actually able to do things besides passively exist on the map and granting one passive effect gets blocked off by a wall of "please no it's overpowered".
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:22 am

lettergreep wrote:
comelate wrote:

remove useless crap/ blue orb crap in slayer tavern, etc
remove army lol so broken
It's a lot more interesting to rework things than removing them. I can probably come up with something, but I've noticed that suggesting changes which result in making entities actually able to do things besides passively exist on the map and granting one passive effect gets blocked off by a wall of "please no it's overpowered".

rework is like remove. If you do that too much, people will complain. Rework the game mechanism also should be avoided (unless you want VB v2.0). Also there are many idea, but some of them will get into the game. Quality not quantity Very Happy

the_deku_nutt wrote:

When I come home from work tonight I'll write *another* comprehensive post about everything that needs to happen to bring vampires up to snuff

I hope to see that soon Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:07 am

popopxD wrote:
Quality not quantity Very Happy
How about a large quantity with good qualtiy? It's not an insurmountable achievement.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:11 am

Alright, time for post #240021 of things that Vamp Beast needs to function properly. We'll start with vampires because they have the most things that can be improved upon for the least amount of effort.

1. The vampire's heal needs a mana rebalancing. Nobody takes it over level 5 because of the insane increase in manacost that it has at level 6+. Scale those costs down and vampires will have the sustain they need to attack walls for longer durations against low towered humans.

2. Remove boots from the game and increase vampire's movespeed. I know triton opposes this for some nonsense reason, but it has to happen. Vamps are throwing away a whole inventory slot on an item that does absolutely nothing. That inventory slot could be used on a variety of other items that never see the light of day because of inefficient slots.

3. There needs to be an incentive for vampires to keep leveling after level 40. Everyone can agree that outside of some seriously cheesy one in a million chance attempt at killing a 1000 HP human with coil+double chain+tremble+unholy, nobody gives a shit about Death Coil. Make it a % based heal like in the 2.0 map and the spell would actually be good for once it's existence. The level 80 and level 100 lich skills are even worse than Death Coil and could probably stand to just be removed entirely and replaced with something that has some actual use. Starfall has really shitty AOE and damage. Immolation is so impossibly bad that I don't think in my 5000+ games of vamp beast I've EVER seen a human die to it.

4. Vampire items.

My god, there are so many useless items for the vampires to buy. I'll list them here.

:Ring of the hell lords is too expensive for what it does, and it doesn't exactly do much anyways. It's proc based and deals really low damage; I'm probably the only player that buys it and it's because I'm a troll. Forgive me for tooting the 2.0 horn, but it's effect there was really valuable and made the item interesting. If nothing else, drop the cost on it by a LOT and increase the damage. Rushing it could be useful against humans repairing without knights.
:Claws of the Dreadlord provide bonuses so inconsequential that I don't even know the exact numbers on it. I know they cost 1000 lumber which is completely ridiculous. This item needs the charges removed and the lumber cost dropped if not removed entirely. Increase the regeneration that it provides and it could be good sustain.
:Basically every gate item except for armor. This is a balance problem that will never be fixed in this version of the game, but outside of complete pub level trash you will never kill a base by buying items other than armor from the Hell Gates. Basically every human has a god wall or better by the time it opens and rending just can't kill that. You only buy those items when forge opens and you're ready to put your shards together.
:Refresh Potion. This item would be SO good with just a few tweaks to its numbers (and the inventory problem solved as I've suggested MANY times). Since you're probably incapable of copying the 2.0 solution and making it grant a skill on pickup, just reduce the cooldown to something more manageable. It grants solid sustain and defense against ganks, but you can't afford to get it right now because it costs too much, doesn't have enough uses, and once again, your slots are already full.

Essentially playing vampire boils down to this. You rush either a helm or level 20 depending on how farmed you get early, then you get tremble+termites+pillage. After this you have a few, limited options on your purchases. Hammer, boom+burst, unholies, 40rush, or just save for gateway. The other items do not matter. They are just shop filler.
When gateway opens, depending on your gold, you have to get credit card and armor. Armor is core, without this you die because humans can just kill you no matter what else you get. Even with armor, farming walls is hard against a human who cares to throw up a few meteors and manas. If you opted into the blasting route, you do that until the humans mana up and get rid of you.
When forge opens, you have to buy a profit spinner because unless you got hella farm you're too poor to afford everything you need to break a beast wall. You sit in mid and spin and just hope you can spin faster than humans can spire.

When 1 human spires, you worry. When 2 humans spire, you tab out and proceed to watch porn. As a vampire, you're constantly playing behind the humans tech tree and hoping you can catch them in a mistake.


The human side:

1. Bouncers are too strong. Bouncers shouldn't be a free "don't attack me" card. They should be a delay tactic that gives you time to detonate your shit and get out. They should be killable by a vampire with a helm at least. Currently they're buff as hell and can't be killed by 2 level 40 vamps during their timer duration(which is also way too long)

2. Knight rotation. Personally, I think knights being able to repair is stupid. Given everyone's inability to play, however, I could understand the crying that would result if they were removed, so here's a balance suggestion. Decrease their duration by half and give them 5 mana with no regeneration. Two bases next to each other can pop a single set of knights and just blink them back and forth between the bases at no cost since knights have thousands of mana.

3. Armies. Right now, humans can pop armies on every single cooldown and not give a shit because the armies don't grant any gold. Even if the army gank doesn't kill a vampire, you waste a lot of their time because they have to stop and attack the units just to get them off. Armies should either be (A) removed entirely or (B) grant decent gold and experience so that failed ganks get punished.

4. Tower rebalancing. This is a minor gripe, but it's still a gripe. Some towers are just bad. The meteor family is the only group of towers that really matter lategame. Lightning oracles do shit for damage and have no effects. Meteors can cripple and do hella damage. I've build 20+ fully maxed oracles in a base before for trolling purposes and they did LESS damage than your usual star tower base. Oracles cost like 20k gold apiece to max too.

5. Star towers. Broken, just broken. The damage increase from Moons to Stars is completely stupid as hell. Nerf them with the nerfbat, make them not the most cost efficient damage in the game.

6. I'm not going to bother talking about slayers much. Too much butthurt about these, leave them how they are and just let players learn to cope the best they can. I think battle slayers ministun is ridiculous, but whatever.

7. Human items:

: Replicator. Remove it, it's a fundamentally flawed item. If you have the gold to buy a replicator, you can just mass beast walls to better effect.

:Banish. Remove entirely. This item was added because in the early days of 1.5 players couldn't cope with vampires because they didn't know what they were doing. Nowadays even bad humans know the most efficient tech and early CC's and spires are extremely common. Get out of jail free cards are cancerous.

:Portable Portals. Fun item, a lot of cool strategies could crop up around this if they were buffed. Right now they're not good because they cost too much and they lock your camera when used. Convert them to gateways so they don't affect your camera and reduce their cost a lot and they'll be tons of fun.

: Repair bolt. Reduce the cooldown on the regular research center one and nerf the cost. This compensates for removing banish. Repair bolt is a more skill based item than banish but serves the same fundamental function without just completely wasting vamps time.

: Pendants of vitality and mana. Don't really know what to say about these, but vests are just better. You get the same HP from vests, but damage and truesight too for only 2 more gold. Pendents of mana have no usage whatsoever, they should give mana regeneration and cost only lumber and then maybe humans might buy them.


I'm probably forgetting a lot of important things since it's 2 in the morning, but this is probably enough for now. As for reworking resulting in complaining, who cares. People will complain no matter what you do. Some things in this game need reworking, period. People won't know how to use new and interesting things until I teach them anyways; make stuff innovative and not useless as hell and I'll show people how to use it.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:33 pm

Good post, deku. I do not have time to comment more right now, but hopefully it will generate some meaningful discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:30 pm

lettergreep wrote:
comelate wrote:

remove useless crap/ blue orb crap in slayer tavern, etc
remove army lol so broken
It's a lot more interesting to rework things than removing them. I can probably come up with something, but I've noticed that suggesting changes which result in making entities actually able to do things besides passively exist on the map and granting one passive effect gets blocked off by a wall of "please no it's overpowered".

if you haven't gotten ganked by 12 slayers all with armies then your say has less meaning on this matter. the potential damage that armies on multiple slayers/2 or more can end the game straight up if a vamp does not find much with his early farsights and get an appropriate level to outplay army rush.

a rework won't do much unless army damage values are reduced significantly but then whats the point of having them in game then
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:36 pm

comelate wrote:
a rework won't do much unless army damage values are reduced significantly but then whats the point of having them in game then
The term "rework" in this particular scenario would among other things entail the general idea of having it balanced. It seems to be a conditio sine qua non that the appropriate response to someone uttering the word "rework" is yelling "OVERPOWERED" at the top of your lungs.

Quote :
if you haven't gotten ganked by 12 slayers all with armies then your say has less meaning on this matter.
Color me suprised, I haven't seen a game with 12 slayers yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:52 pm

How about making army's strength scale off slayer's level?

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:15 pm

lettergreep wrote:
comelate wrote:
a rework won't do much unless army damage values are reduced significantly but then whats the point of having them in game then
The term "rework" in this particular scenario would among other things entail the general idea of having it balanced. It seems to be a conditio sine qua non that the appropriate response to someone uttering the word "rework" is yelling "OVERPOWERED" at the top of your lungs.

Quote :
if you haven't gotten ganked by 12 slayers all with armies then your say has less meaning on this matter.
Color me suprised, I haven't seen a game with 12 slayers yet.

you are obviously a new player and what you say will prob not matter much towards the map development because your input is not credible
there is a reason why everyone who actually plays this game agrees that army is broken and overpowered

the definition of overpowered is when there is little to no outplay against it and the only hope vsing army is a concoction something that cost 40 gold and is not cost effective for snowballing in the early game so people usually do not buy it till the mid/late game

"reworking" armies will either make them completely useless or completely broken unless you can suggest a good rework which you haven't so i doubt you have one in mind. tryharding and posting latin terms will not make your input matter because you do not even play vb
also play nosf against deku before you post about army again/ or anything vb related
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:42 pm

Thank for the post deku, I agree to almost everything in your post, but there is something you should note:

the_deku_nutt wrote:

  :Refresh Potion. This item would be SO good with just a few tweaks to its numbers (and the inventory problem solved as I've suggested MANY times). Since you're probably incapable of copying the 2.0 solution and making it grant a skill on pickup, just reduce the cooldown to something more manageable. It grants solid sustain and defense against ganks, but you can't afford to get it right now because it costs too much, doesn't have enough uses, and once again, your slots are already full.


I'm still thinking that the cost should be reduce to 75 gold and make the effect AOE, or the lich can use it to heal its vamp, I can make it become an ability like 2.0 but the problem is our vamp has a full list of ability.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:04 pm

popopxD wrote:
Thank for the post deku, I agree to almost everything in your post, but there is something you should note:

I'm still thinking that the cost should be reduce to 75 gold and make the effect AOE, or the lich can use it to heal its vamp, I can make it become an ability like 2.0 but the problem is our vamp has a full list of ability.

You just hide the Critical Strike spell. Vampires still have the crit, you just can't see it. That's how frozen handled the problem. I wouldn't mind the effect being AOE, but it would probably be OP.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:50 pm

comelate wrote:
<lots of talk about how coming back after years of no VB makes me less relevant
I'm not going to get into a huge discussion without you about this, but sure, I may not be standing in the best spot to be saying what should happen with the game. My past and current experiences with game development however, do give me some insight in what is or isn't healthy for a game.

Sure mate, I didn't play VB up until recently at all. Somehow though I see the most obvious imbalances on a map that has been around for years which are apparently "normal" and "balanced". Ring of regeneration worth 4 gold? Nosfs being completely out of mana before they even reach a wall? The fact that humans (even without a slayer) can hold off a nosf before the first gold if they build two walls and a bunch of spike towers? Bouncer duration and early-midgame relevancy vs lategame uselesness? Knights repair rate combined with that duration and unrestricted blink? Map edge bases being retardedly good vs mid map bases? And when I show up to say something about it on the forums this apparent long-term player with years of experience tells me my ideas are irrelevant? I ask myself how it's even possible that I seem to be the first bringing up some of these problems. And if I'm not, then why hasn't any of it changed yet?

So can we get over the fact that seniority != superiority, and try to get along to make a more balanced and fun to play map?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:52 pm

lettergreep wrote:

So can we get over the fact that seniority != superiority, and try to get along to make a more balanced and fun to play map?

He's right.

Except for me, in my case seniority and superiority are the same thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:53 pm

lettergreep wrote:
comelate wrote:
<lots of talk about how coming back after years of no VB makes me less relevant
I'm not going to get into a huge discussion without you about this, but sure, I may not be standing in the best spot to be saying what should happen with the game. My past and current experiences with game development however, do give me some insight in what is or isn't healthy for a game.

Sure mate, I didn't play VB up until recently at all. Somehow though I see the most obvious imbalances on a map that has been around for years which are apparently "normal" and "balanced". Ring of regeneration worth 4 gold? Nosfs being completely out of mana before they even reach a wall? The fact that humans (even without a slayer) can hold off a nosf before the first gold if they build two walls and a bunch of spike towers? Bouncer duration and early-midgame relevancy vs lategame uselesness? Knights repair rate combined with that duration and unrestricted blink? Map edge bases being retardedly good vs mid map bases? And when I show up to say something about it on the forums this apparent long-term player with years of experience tells me my ideas are irrelevant? I ask myself how it's even possible that I seem to be the first bringing up some of these problems. And if I'm not, then why hasn't any of it changed yet?

So can we get over the fact that seniority != superiority, and try to get along to make a more balanced and fun to play map?

I like you, New player that has actually noticed errors in the map. if only there were more like you.

comelate wrote:
<lots of talk about how coming back after years of no VB makes me less relevant

Makes no difference if you played years ago, or started last week, the bugs have always been there and even though its pains me to say it, You had some skillz shrine. Still a faggot though.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:30 pm

Sir. wrote:
lettergreep wrote:
comelate wrote:
<lots of talk about how coming back after years of no VB makes me less relevant
I'm not going to get into a huge discussion without you about this, but sure, I may not be standing in the best spot to be saying what should happen with the game. My past and current experiences with game development however, do give me some insight in what is or isn't healthy for a game.

Sure mate, I didn't play VB up until recently at all. Somehow though I see the most obvious imbalances on a map that has been around for years which are apparently "normal" and "balanced". Ring of regeneration worth 4 gold? Nosfs being completely out of mana before they even reach a wall? The fact that humans (even without a slayer) can hold off a nosf before the first gold if they build two walls and a bunch of spike towers? Bouncer duration and early-midgame relevancy vs lategame uselesness? Knights repair rate combined with that duration and unrestricted blink? Map edge bases being retardedly good vs mid map bases? And when I show up to say something about it on the forums this apparent long-term player with years of experience tells me my ideas are irrelevant? I ask myself how it's even possible that I seem to be the first bringing up some of these problems. And if I'm not, then why hasn't any of it changed yet?

So can we get over the fact that seniority != superiority, and try to get along to make a more balanced and fun to play map?

I like you, New player that has actually noticed errors in the map. if only there were more like you.

comelate wrote:
<lots of talk about how coming back after years of no VB makes me less relevant

Makes no difference if you played years ago, or started last week, the bugs have always been there and even though its pains me to say it, You had some skillz shrine. Still a faggot though.

all he did was restate what information was already on this thread how blind can you get.... if you read his previous posts he isn't contributing much to this thread/map development. your hate has blinded you and calling me a faggot has proved it lel.
i can taste your tears sir.  

OMG LETS JUST REWORK SHIT CAUSE THEY ARE SO FUN TO USE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

edit: just because trition reworks the map does not mean the map will revive btw
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:02 pm

comelate wrote:

OMG LETS JUST REWORK SHIT CAUSE THEY ARE SO FUN TO USE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That's a pretty good idea actually. I play this game for fun, so reworking things that aren't fun in order to increase their fun would be fun. Also, fun fun fun fun fun fun.

FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN.

The longer you look at it, the less it seems like it should be a real word.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:07 pm

The best way to nerf slayers is what I would suggest:

-Reduce blink time from 1 second to 1.5 or even 2.0 seconds.
- Slayers gain 1 lv every minute versus 2 levels per minute.
- Reduce base damage, but buff HP and armor. Allow slayer damage to increase through increments of level 10, 20 ,40, 60, etc to combat unholy graves later on in the game.

I have an interesting take on banish flute. It can be made to be used by the person who has claim the base for what i'm going to suggest. The banishing flute is something that is fight or flute. The typical counter to it is just to use whisper of the shadow and wait to be banished, but this isn't possible if there are multiple flutes. Now, here's a catch i'd like to add to the banishing flute. If a human uses it to cast it can either go north or south for them. It would have a 60% cast rate of banishing the vampire successfully. HOWEVER, if the banish is unsuccessful there is a terrible reaction that costs catastrophe damage to the area that is % based. What this means if they're fluting at a wall theres a good chance you'll not only drop a certain percentage of health for your wall, but causing your base to be broken openly.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:29 pm

I'm not sure about that % chance TBH.

I only ever flute in most cases when my base is about to be broken anyways, I.E. they have a shard and I still have an ultra titan or something. With these changes I would have a very difficult time with how I use the flute, lol.

Noobs seem to already have a difficult time just using the basic flute as it is, I would suggest we find a way to impair its abuse AND make it more noob friendly?

How about this;
The flute no longer has a cast time can ONLY be used within the set boundaries of the base and only by the owner of said base.
That means it can't be used until the vamp has actually broken your wall and entered the base unless you use an alternative wall placement, but doing so would also open you up to french and shade jumping earlier on I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:34 pm

I liked your concept of risk and reward Chewbaccula, but there is a flaw in the trade-off. I can make a wall in the lower part of the ramp for the early game but after T4 move it back so that I can banish the nosf.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:42 pm

opaca wrote:
I liked your concept of risk and reward Chewbaccula, but there is a flaw in the trade-off. I can make a wall in the lower part of the ramp for the early game but after T4 move it back so that I can banish the nosf.

The damage would be ranged like an inferno
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:45 pm

opaca wrote:
I liked your concept of risk and reward Chewbaccula, but there is a flaw in the trade-off. I can make a wall in the lower part of the ramp for the early game but after T4 move it back so that I can banish the nosf.

Yea, I couldn't think of a way to work around that with the current systems.  Problematic considering that 90% of the time you aren't going to use the flute before CC level anyways.

Is there any way that we could re-assign the basing zones or perhaps create a new zone specifically for the flute in each base that would not allow it to be used in the proper wall zones without also taking away the player's ability to oust?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   

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Map Direction
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