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 Map Direction

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Emo.Donky
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:22 am

the_deku_nutt wrote:
Humans can't build in a base they haven't claimed, simple as that. If players don't like it they can 1.5 imo.




^ best idea yet.

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Triton144
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:55 am

Emo.Donky wrote:
the_deku_nutt wrote:
Humans can't build in a base they haven't claimed, simple as that. If players don't like it they can 1.5 imo.




^ best idea yet.

Yes but the idea is not to split the players between two versions because we don't have the playerbase too. There has to be some common ground.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:43 am

Triton144 wrote:
Emo.Donky wrote:
the_deku_nutt wrote:
Humans can't build in a base they haven't claimed, simple as that. If players don't like it they can 1.5 imo.




^ best idea yet.

Yes but the idea is not to split the players between two versions because we don't have the playerbase too. There has to be some common ground.


You must agree that towering/walling each other is just stupid and broken, right?

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:34 am

Emo.Donky wrote:
You must agree that towering/walling each other is just stupid and broken, right?

Emo, did you not notice earlier when Triton said:

Triton144 wrote:
the_deku_nutt wrote:

Multiple humans in a single base.
My name is johnny dipshit and I lack the capacity to tech and maintain defense at the same time. Ill just get my friend Asswipe to tower for me and pull leaks. When he gets some gold he can be a dick with his slayer. When/if it goes lategame, he can banish and repair bolt for me too!

Not only does this make one base functionally immune to attack, it reduces the overall available farm by a whole human. Thats a human that isn't contributing to the pool of farm. The game is driven by how much vamps are able to perform. If half the humans in the game don't base, then its basically a 5vs2 only the 5 are twice as strong and the 2 half as fed.

Yes this is an issue I have not found a solution to yet.

Clearly most (if not all) of us recognize that allowing more than one player to tech in a single base twists the game out of all semblance of balance. Triton has indicated that he is looking for a solution to this issue. Give popopXD and him a little time and room to think things through, they only started working on this about a week ago?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:16 pm

Northern.Lite wrote:
Emo.Donky wrote:
You must agree that towering/walling each other is just stupid and broken, right?

Emo, did you not notice earlier when Triton said:

Triton144 wrote:
the_deku_nutt wrote:

Multiple humans in a single base.
My name is johnny dipshit and I lack the capacity to tech and maintain defense at the same time. Ill just get my friend Asswipe to tower for me and pull leaks. When he gets some gold he can be a dick with his slayer. When/if it goes lategame, he can banish and repair bolt for me too!

Not only does this make one base functionally immune to attack, it reduces the overall available farm by a whole human. Thats a human that isn't contributing to the pool of farm. The game is driven by how much vamps are able to perform. If half the humans in the game don't base, then its basically a 5vs2 only the 5 are twice as strong and the 2 half as fed.

Yes this is an issue I have not found a solution to yet.

Clearly most (if not all) of us recognize that allowing more than one player to tech in a single base twists the game out of all semblance of balance.  Triton has indicated that he is looking for a solution to this issue.  Give popopXD and him a little time and room to think things through, they only started working on this about a week ago?

Well I was thinking if we can just make an inhouse mode (Like -cm in dota), where human can only build and flute in their claimed base. Because in pub game, vamp rape human most of the time.

About the forge: I think remove cooldown is a huge buff to vamp, not human. For example vamp can buy a ton of profit spinner then he will get other item very fast, or they can have 2 shards and there will be no hope for human (while if they can get only 1 shard, pro human can still struggling).

I was thinking if the nosf (only nosf) can be respawn at 8:00 game time if he is dead due to early gank (except inhouse mode), what do you think ?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:16 pm

popopxD wrote:

Well I was thinking if we can just make an inhouse mode (Like -cm in dota), where human can only build and flute in their claimed base. Because in pub game, vamp rape human most of the time.

About the forge: I think remove cooldown is a huge buff to vamp, not human. For example vamp can buy a ton of profit spinner then he will get other item very fast, or they can have 2 shards and there will be no hope for human (while if they can get only 1 shard, pro human can still struggling).

I was thinking if the nosf (only nosf) can be respawn at 8:00 game time if he is dead due to early gank (except inhouse mode), what do you think ?

is this the return of -fmvvbcrt, -tournament, and -tg?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:21 pm

czydude wrote:
is this the return of -fmvvbcrt, -tournament, and -tg?

I believe he is suggesting a specific inhouse game mode, not a return to the ancient codes.....

Also, if the ease with which slayers can pull off an early gank of a nosf is still an issue after the modifications previously mentioned, then a re-spawn may very well be the best way to address this issue.  I would like to suggest that we wait and see what that situation is in the testing before considering adding in a re-spawn.


Last edited by Northern.Lite on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:24 pm

No I am not particularly in favor of reviving the nosf or inhouse mode unless it is absolutely necessary, which I don't feel at the moment it is.

I need thoughts on this:

2 ways potentially to fix the flute

1) have the flute baselocked where can only be fluted once per 6 mins in each base hallways would be fair game.

2) Increase the ability of burst immunity shield to block banish and raise cd from .5 to 10 secs. This would make the flute a game of skill between the human and nosf while also eliminating the ability to use it as a win all safety net.

By game of skill these are some scenarios that might happen.
1 human manaburns other human starts flute to flute the vamp, But he can conc after manaburn to prevent it. A single human can cripple to proc the shield and then banish or vamp can back a few seconds if he's good to prevent it.

Let me know which will be best. Even in the first case the flute is still a safety net allowing humans to play greedy.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:07 pm

turn flute into an ability
and it only becomes available after you complete a research

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:42 pm

opaca wrote:
turn flute into an ability
and it only becomes available after you complete a research
But that won't fix anything it will just change how you get it.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:40 pm

I would agree with the in house option, albeit I don't think I've seen an actual in house game in months/years. While walling and towering for somebody else is OP to the vamps, it's also important to note that all of the people that do actually wall and tower for each other within our current active users are actually not very good at it, so it isn't really abusive enough to warrant a change. Many of the newer players that do play with a friend will want to base with their friend, so it isn't really fair and I think it would alienate newer players that a friend has played once or twice.

I think that the forge should always just be a vamp only shop because the goal is to make a base as a human and win. Obviously there would need to be some sort of end game tower like there was in the older beta by frozen, which gave map-wide range and almost instant kill damage, and should cost about 300k gold and full lumber (assuming the numbers for the costs of the towers aren't going to be played with.)

Some other suggestions:

-boost the armor from beast bane armor to 1500 and 750 for the aura effect. T4 towers are too strong for current armor if the vamp is to possibly feed off of the wall, and its impossible to feed effectively if blasting is going to be nerfed against goldmines. I don't know if there's a wc3 damage calculator anywhere but you can probably find an appropriate number for the armor to be buffed to.

-Increase the chance of getting gold for pillaging claws. My justification for this is that without the fear of spending your gold and having none for gates, it's impossible to break the lower tier walls before gates due to super fatasses and the 6 knights on the wall crap. This would also make the humans more wary about playing greedy because the lower tier walls can now effectively be broken because the vampires would have more gold than they would before, the humans would also have to make more towers to prevent the vampire from feeding and upgrade to the lil god wall or god wall before gates if the vampires are fed enough, this would also force later tier 4's or at least change it so that there's a much higher risk - reward ratio for playing greedy.

-I would also suggest that a tome be added to the forge (which would now be vampire only) that would give 2k stats per tome or something to that effect, obviously the pricing for this would have to be tested out thoroughly, but as is the vampire is screwed late game even if he has the money, he simply can't spend any of it to win.

-Holy slayer be brought back, perhaps with an aura like the super fatasses, I can't remember what the original holy slayer had, it's been too long.

-Frenchmen should be buffed, and with that being said aboms should be buffed and have a higher move speed or something that makes them decent for their cost, so you can move them around the map to attack things on the edges of bases or mini bases and they don't have a chance to drop an item like the vamp does. The justification for the frenchman buff is that the only real way you can get "frenchied" is if you aren't building towers at all or not paying attention with your slayer alive as is. It also stops you from just making towers or doing the wall at the bottom of the ramp walling strategy that Triton does. So increase damage and health.

-As for the flute make it have a much larger cooldown, you cant stop people from moving around the map after their base is broken, but you can at least stop it after the original flutes.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:22 pm

Dub wrote:
I think that the forge should always just be a vamp only shop
I dont know if it's okay, but people will start complain that this is not like vamp beast anymore. So i will leave it for now.....

Dub wrote:
-Increase the chance of getting gold for pillaging claws.
I just have fix the tooltip (1gold/8attack, 4% chance of getting 3 golds is the correct one) and leave it for u guys to discuss

Dub wrote:

-Holy slayer be brought back, perhaps with an aura like the super fatasses, I can't remember what the original holy slayer had, it's been too long.
This is the important thing to remember because in the code, the holy hammer (healing slayer) is not completed, I was wondering if it's implementing or it was removed.

Dub wrote:

-As for the flute make it have a much larger cooldown, you cant stop people from moving around the map after their base is broken, but you can at least stop it after the original flutes.

There are a problem about this issue:
Fixing the flute only will cause many problem, there are some cases we should consider:
1. In house (Both vamp and human are pros)
2. Pub game, vamp is noob, human base is OP
3. Pub game, some human are noob, vamp is pro, and the human side can hold the vamp easily (or better than vamp)
4. Pub game, almost all human has been defeated, only 1 left and the vamp is pro. multiple flute will save him but too many multiple flute will make his base unable to touch (flute spam FTW)
a. the vamp havent destroy human wall, multiple flute here is OP
b. the vamp destroyed the human wall, multiple flute (2~3) will help the human have enough time to make another wotcb

Currently, the In house case will make it unfair for the vamp, but the pub game, vamp rape human most of the time.

Another thing to consider is:
Human have an inventory of 5 after upgraded, and there is a bug so we can get only 3 items so basically, you guys are using only repair item, eyes and flute, but we havent use the replicator and the shatterstorms (-armor). The replicator was considered to be OP (after fixed the bug that only allow red to use it) and come with shatterstorms, I think human can hold the base himself
So what I thought was: buff the human mana regen from 0.2 to 0.5 (or 0.8/1) so he can use all those item to hold his base. And then restrict those item to be used in your base only.

anyway, I will leave the flute as it is for now (but it will still in the issue list).......
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:04 am

The map is done. Right now it is essentially a copy of 1.500f with 99% of bugs and some balancing issues fixed. All that I am waiting on is a list of which skins need to be included and which need to be removed. Hopefully this will be soon. Almost there.

~Triton144

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:58 pm

gratz
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:38 am

is there a global leak ?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:50 am

waterfire wrote:
is there a global leak ?

I doubt triton is brave enough to make a version with such a drastic change. We already had a version that implemented such awesome features and the community pissed it away.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:54 am

If you want to prevent Multiple humans from basing and towering each other I might have a simple solution.

Make them build more stuff.

Make a wall as well as masonry research part of the requirement for moving up a tier or for building certain towers like the flames and then scale the required wall with the higher level towers.

Bam!
No mega? can't flame tower.  No giga? can't ultimate or super flame and so on.

Actually you could likely seal the fate of the duo's if a mega/giga was required to upgrade your citidel in order to CC, but that would also mean that we can't go all the way to forge without a wall anymore Razz

The only viable strat then would be for a human to skip normal play and purely tower, but even then this should slow them down considerably(removes 17 - 31k lumber depending on whether or not they based previously) and create a smaller window in which they can effectively tower.

Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:34 am

the_deku_nutt wrote:
waterfire wrote:
is there a global leak ?

I doubt triton is brave enough to make a version with such a drastic change. We already had a version that implemented such awesome features and the community pissed it away.

Get it straight.... the core testing group (which you were a key part of) that Frozen was relying on drove the community away by map hacking and unrelenting trolling in the testing games.  You have only yourselves to blame on that one.
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:55 pm

since this is the only active thread on the forum, ill say it here
please unban my ip from vbl bot
177.18

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:09 am

Flute: in addition to the current effects it adds a buff to the nosf making him immune to the flute item until it expires. This buff cannot be purged / transfered / whateverthefuck to remove it.

Humans now have to think before fluting because they'll only be able to use it once every X seconds on each nosf, even if the nosf would choose to attack another base. Pretty big lategame buff to nosf I think?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:25 am

opaca wrote:
since this is the only active thread on the forum, ill say it here
please unban my ip from vbl bot
177.18

Sorry opaca I used a brazil-based server to join the game and play, that's probably why you were banned. Since most of brazil is covered by a garbage pile space program, you don't really have a big IP range to work with. My bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:17 am

the_deku_nutt wrote:
opaca wrote:
since this is the only active thread on the forum, ill say it here
please unban my ip from vbl bot
177.18

Sorry opaca I used a brazil-based server to join the game and play, that's probably why you were banned. Since most of brazil is covered by a garbage pile space program, you don't really have a big IP range to work with. My bad.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha man crush

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:11 pm

lettergreep wrote:
Flute: in addition to the current effects it adds a buff to the nosf making him immune to the flute item until it expires. This buff cannot be purged / transfered / whateverthefuck to remove it.

Humans now have to think before fluting because they'll only be able to use it once every X seconds on each nosf, even if the nosf would choose to attack another base. Pretty big lategame buff to nosf I think?

I actually think that this would be too strong, and intentionally making everyone pay for someone's mistake doesn't seem fair




fuck you deku

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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:04 am

opaca wrote:
lettergreep wrote:
Flute: in addition to the current effects it adds a buff to the nosf making him immune to the flute item until it expires. This buff cannot be purged / transfered / whateverthefuck to remove it.

Humans now have to think before fluting because they'll only be able to use it once every X seconds on each nosf, even if the nosf would choose to attack another base. Pretty big lategame buff to nosf I think?

I actually think that this would be too strong, and intentionally making everyone pay for someone's mistake doesn't seem fair




fuck you deku
I second that, some people flute just because the nos shows up, why should someone that needs the flute be punished because someone with a WotCB didnt feel like repairing when the nos showed up?
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PostSubject: Re: Map Direction   Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:00 am

I guess the best way would be making it -claim bound then like most people said. It could be a seperate buff for each claimable area on the map, if you're inside that particular area, you cannot be banished anymore until the buff wears off. So no banish spam on one base would be possible. Better?
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