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 Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?

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popopxD
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PostSubject: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:55 am

As the title, had you do it ? tell me about your story
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:26 pm

One time a vamp was using his lich to bring a beastbane helm to himself, but his inventory was full so it was placed on the ground. I was able to grab that.

It was 100% his fault though, so he deserved his subsequent loss. I can see where this is going, don't make vampire items teambound.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:18 pm

I have to agree with deku on this one, if a vamp puts something on the ground, it is up for grabs the same as a vamp picking up knights, archers, etc., that a careless human leaves on the ground.

Most of us have picked up dropped items, I once caught an unholy grave (gg vamps) and have seen many others snap up things left on the ground or dropped on sloppy transfer. It is a part of the game and skill of the players involved. You cannot program out stupid mistakes.
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:11 pm

The only aspect of this that I would change is making castle tower attack not automatically kill items. It's too easy for humans to turn towers on and forget about it. Or remove the attack function altogether; it has very minimal gameplay value.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:16 pm

i've lost countless Void Beast Soulbombs to castle towers

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:31 pm

opaca wrote:
i've lost countless Void Beast Soulbombs to castle towers

And blasting gems, holy shit.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:11 pm

Northern.Lite wrote:
I have to agree with deku on this one, if a vamp puts something on the ground, it is up for grabs the same as a vamp picking up knights, archers, etc., that a careless human leaves on the ground.  

Most of us have picked up dropped items, I once caught an unholy grave (gg vamps) and have seen many others snap up things left on the ground or dropped on sloppy transfer.  It is a part of the game and skill of the players involved.  You cannot program out stupid mistakes.

They have already changed it so vamps cant pick up human items.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:57 pm

Sir. wrote:
They have already changed it so vamps cant pick up human items.

Perhaps I am not at all certain that change was a good one? If it is fair for humans to pick up dropped items, then it should also be fair in reverse.
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:05 pm

Northern.Lite wrote:
Sir. wrote:
They have already changed it so vamps cant pick up human items.

Perhaps I am not at all certain that change was a good one?  If it is fair for humans to pick up dropped items, then it should also be fair in reverse.

An argument could be made that humans have a LOT less to focus on in terms of APM and unit control; top level vamps can be controlling 3+ units at a time whereas humans are only expected to manage 2-3 things per minute. If humans are so inattentive that they allow items to change hands then they should be punished accordingly.

From an administrative standpoint, however, it's much easier to prevent intentional item passing from team to team by simply coding it out rather than having to deal with it on a ban by ban basis.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:31 pm

Sir. wrote:

They have already changed it so vamps cant pick up human items.

Only summon item, because it seems that human never drop them, except newbies and intentional feeding

I was once, a vamp, and a human feed me those item intentional (he feed me a tracker), I didnt use it effective so he hide another summon item in somewhere on the map (knights), intentional suicide, finally, he put the item up and gg

the_deku_nutt wrote:

From an administrative standpoint, however, it's much easier to prevent intentional item passing from team to team by simply coding it out rather than having to deal with it on a ban by ban basis.

yeah I was going to make the rule list shorter, oust abuse is the top on the list, then intentional feeding.

There are case, people upload the map on epicwar and play it somewhere else, garena, gameranger(I knew VB once because I played it on gameranger) and people doesnt have any rule there. Even many people can ban evade on VBL bot.
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:04 pm

popopxD wrote:
Even many people can ban evade on VBL bot.

I've been permabanned for forever and I still play all the time.

The only way to stop being from ban evading is to fix all the rules so that no rules are required.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:09 pm

popopxD wrote:

yeah I was going to make the rule list shorter, oust abuse is the top on the list, then intentional feeding.

There are case, people upload the map on epicwar and play it somewhere else, garena, gameranger(I knew VB once because I played it on gameranger) and people doesnt have any rule there. Even many people can ban evade on VBL bot.

Rules for the map a specific to whoever is hosting the bot.  The current rules are ones that were created by Clan VBL and are specific to the ClanVBL ghost bot.  They do not come under the control of the map developer, although the rules in use on version 1.5 by the clan have been recognized by Frozenhelfire as being "what makes the map playable" as it is today.  Clearly, the things being fixxed on the map should allow us to shorten the number of rules or perhaps even remove all of them.  This would result in fewer bans and less work for the admin staff.

the_deku_nutt wrote:
The only way to stop being from ban evading is to fix all the rules so that no rules are required.

There will be bans on bots so long as people find a way to cheat in games and that has nothing to do with the issues in the coding in version 1.5 (consider bans on DoTA bots, for instance).  In your case, as you well know, the infractions leading to the permaban had to do with just plain cheating rather than with the breaking of the existing rules that deal with problems in the map.
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:17 pm

Northern.Lite wrote:
popopxD wrote:

yeah I was going to make the rule list shorter, oust abuse is the top on the list, then intentional feeding.

There are case, people upload the map on epicwar and play it somewhere else, garena, gameranger(I knew VB once because I played it on gameranger) and people doesnt have any rule there. Even many people can ban evade on VBL bot.

Rules for the map a specific to whoever is hosting the bot.  The current rules are ones that were created by Clan VBL and are specific to the ClanVBL ghost bot.  They do not come under the control of the map developer, although the rules in use on version 1.5 by the clan have been recognized by Frozenhelfire as being "what makes the map playable" as it is today.  Clearly, the things being fixxed on the map should allow us to shorten the number of rules or perhaps even remove all of them.  This would result in fewer bans and less work for the admin staff.

Some of the rule are being there for fairness, for example, no shard on battleslayer (in nonClanVBL pub, people make bslayer shard) or passing item from fallen mini to human, intentional feeding..... and those rule are also necessary for the map ^_^

But is it necessary to restrict oust abuse to the map :-?
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:55 pm

popopxD wrote:


Some of the rule are being there for fairness, for example, no shard on battleslayer (in nonClanVBL pub, people make bslayer shard) or passing item from fallen mini to human, intentional feeding..... and those rule are also necessary for the map ^_^

But is it necessary to restrict oust abuse to the map :-?

The oust abuse rule is there to prevent people from blinking into a base the vamp has broken into and ousting everything to deny feeding and to stop a player from blinking around until he discovers someone has forgotten to claim their base and he then ousts it simply to troll the other player.  If you claim a base and are using it, you should have the right to oust anyone that simply moves in on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:26 am

If you take away people's ability to cheat, then they can't break rules regarding cheating.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:40 am

Northern.Lite wrote:
popopxD wrote:


Some of the rule are being there for fairness, for example, no shard on battleslayer (in nonClanVBL pub, people make bslayer shard) or passing item from fallen mini to human, intentional feeding..... and those rule are also necessary for the map ^_^

But is it necessary to restrict oust abuse to the map :-?

The oust abuse rule is there to prevent people from blinking into a base the vamp has broken into and ousting everything to deny feeding and to stop a player from blinking around until he discovers someone has forgotten to claim their base and he then ousts it simply to troll the other player.  If you claim a base and are using it, you should have the right to oust anyone that simply moves in on it.

The current rule is preventing people from oust to deny feed, the case is: Red & Blue is basing together, red build the wall and claim it, when vamp breaks the red's base, he oust to deny blue's feed also considered oust abuse
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:39 pm

The current rule provides for banning a player engaging in oust abuse as follows:

1. Someone has an established base that you blink in and claim, then oust them to troll or grieve them.

2. A base is broken by the vamps and ousting is used to deny feed.  It does not matter if you claimed it to oust it, or it was your base and you oust your friend's units/buildings to deny feed.  Once the base is broken then it is oust abuse, as the vamp has a right to the feed once the base is broken.  (There is no rule against using your human builder or slayer(s)to deny buildings to a vamp and obviously you are expected to detonate workers.) Ousting is immediate and inclusive and therefore seen as a type of cheating in this scenario.

Make sense?
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:41 pm

popopxD wrote:
Northern.Lite wrote:
popopxD wrote:


Some of the rule are being there for fairness, for example, no shard on battleslayer (in nonClanVBL pub, people make bslayer shard) or passing item from fallen mini to human, intentional feeding..... and those rule are also necessary for the map ^_^

But is it necessary to restrict oust abuse to the map :-?

The oust abuse rule is there to prevent people from blinking into a base the vamp has broken into and ousting everything to deny feeding and to stop a player from blinking around until he discovers someone has forgotten to claim their base and he then ousts it simply to troll the other player.  If you claim a base and are using it, you should have the right to oust anyone that simply moves in on it.

The current rule is preventing people from oust to deny feed, the case is: Red & Blue is basing together, red build the wall and claim it, when vamp breaks the red's base, he oust to deny blue's feed also considered oust abuse

Yes that would be ousting feed seeing as the vamp has broken the wall. If red ousted blue before the wall was broken then no rule was broken.

Seems ghey i know but hey what can you do.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:03 pm

popopxD wrote:
Sir. wrote:

They have already changed it so vamps cant pick up human items.

Only summon item, because it seems that human never drop them, except newbies and intentional feeding

I was once, a vamp, and a human feed me those item intentional (he feed me a tracker), I didnt use it effective so he hide another summon item in somewhere on the map (knights), intentional suicide, finally, he put the item up and gg

the_deku_nutt wrote:

From an administrative standpoint, however, it's much easier to prevent intentional item passing from team to team by simply coding it out rather than having to deal with it on a ban by ban basis.

yeah I was going to make the rule list shorter, oust abuse is the top on the list, then intentional feeding.

There are case, people upload the map on epicwar and play it somewhere else, garena, gameranger(I knew VB once because I played it on gameranger) and people doesnt have any rule there. Even many people can ban evade on VBL bot.

Only stupidly bad nosfs or trolling nosfs drop items in an area where the humans can pick them up.

If your gonna stop vamps picking up human items, humans shouldnt pick up vamp items at all.

a human can counter a vamp having a tracker with moderate ease that doesnt eat into there lumber or gold count at a game affecting level, What can a vamp do to an already established base when the human picks up say a helm worth 125g?

Nothing that doesnt cost stupid amounts of gold and time to accomplish and on top of that, focusing down said human allows the others to idly sit by and tech knowing full well that they wont be a major target until the fed human is dead.

And on top of that, Like Deku said Humans have literally nothing to do except build lumber workers and a gold mine ever now and then, If they fail to see a vamp attacking a base and notice items on the ground it is there fault, They are fast enough to react to leaks so why not other items. More punishments are needed for humans making mistakes when a vamp can misclick and the game can essentially be lost with said misclick.

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Last edited by Sir. on Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:09 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : I dont need to give you a reason fuck face)
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:16 pm

Sir. wrote:

Yes that would be ousting feed seeing as the vamp has broken the wall. If red ousted blue before the wall was broken then no rule was broken.

Seems ghey i know but hey what can you do.

I will check if vamp (nosf, lich and dreadlord, butcher, doom and meteor) is in a base. If yes, ousting wont take any effect. Note: shade or invisible unit wont prevent human from ousting. Also, -claim wont work in this case (you claim a base where vamp is inside == you are ousting to deny)

Another thing to note is when human build the vault, it will auto claim for them, and if that auto claim is failed, there will be a warning to him. If he ignore that, it's his fault.
Sir. wrote:


If your gonna stop vamps picking up human items, humans shouldnt pick up vamp items at all.

Just a note that vamp can still pick up human's item, they just cant pick up the summon unit item (just in case some one feed vamp intentionally)

Sir. wrote:
when the human picks up say a helm worth 125g?

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, fallen human send a load amount of gold to human.

Sir. wrote:

And on top of that, Like Deku said Humans have literally nothing to do except build lumber workers and a gold mine ever now and then, If they fail to see a vamp attacking a base and notice items on the ground it is there fault, They are fast enough to react to leaks so why not other items. More punishments are needed for humans making mistakes when a vamp can misclick and the game can essentially be lost with said misclick.

Same thought, too.


So I have come to this solution, I dont know if it's good.

NOSF will remain unchanged
DREADLORD (or mini vamp), if he buy any item that lower than 100 gold and 0 wood (mostly is the boot and the concoc), that item will be bounded to him and human cant pick those item. If slayer pick those item, that item will be moved to the unholy grave location and a warning will be broadcast to all player. 2 warning will activate an option for any remaining nosf or dreadlord to kick that player from the game. Although this is not 100% working solution (somebody can still feed human something more than 100 gold if he know this limit, but hey, it's ban worth and a shame for the pros, isn't it ?)
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:09 pm

popopxD wrote:
Sir. wrote:

Yes that would be ousting feed seeing as the vamp has broken the wall. If red ousted blue before the wall was broken then no rule was broken.

Seems ghey i know but hey what can you do.

I will check if vamp (nosf, lich and dreadlord, butcher, doom and meteor) is in a base. If yes, ousting wont take any effect. Note: shade or invisible unit wont prevent human from ousting. Also, -claim wont work in this case (you claim a base where vamp is inside == you are ousting to deny)

Another thing to note is when human build the vault, it will auto claim for them, and if that auto claim is failed, there will be a warning to him. If he ignore that, it's his fault.
Sir. wrote:


If your gonna stop vamps picking up human items, humans shouldnt pick up vamp items at all.

Just a note that vamp can still pick up human's item, they just cant pick up the summon unit item (just in case some one feed vamp intentionally)

Sir. wrote:
when the human picks up say a helm worth 125g?

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, fallen human send a load amount of gold to human.

Sir. wrote:

And on top of that, Like Deku said Humans have literally nothing to do except build lumber workers and a gold mine ever now and then, If they fail to see a vamp attacking a base and notice items on the ground it is there fault, They are fast enough to react to leaks so why not other items. More punishments are needed for humans making mistakes when a vamp can misclick and the game can essentially be lost with said misclick.

Same thought, too.


So I have come to this solution, I dont know if it's good.

NOSF will remain unchanged
DREADLORD (or mini vamp), if he buy any item that lower than 100 gold and 0 wood (mostly is the boot and the concoc), that item will be bounded to him and human cant pick those item. If slayer pick those item, that item will be moved to the unholy grave location and a warning will be broadcast to all player. 2 warning will activate an option for any remaining nosf or dreadlord to kick that player from the game. Although this is not 100% working solution (somebody can still feed human something more than 100 gold if he know this limit, but hey, it's ban worth and a shame for the pros, isn't it ?)

No thats not a solution thats just a warning that a mini is bad. Humans can buy and use lesser and massive graves, why cant a vamp pick up something that summons?

Beginning too see a pattern emerging with these balances.

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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:17 pm

Sir. wrote:

No thats not a solution thats just a warning that a mini is bad. Humans can buy and use lesser and massive graves, why cant a vamp pick up something that summons?

Beginning too see a pattern emerging with these balances.

Human cant buy and use graves, only charmed lich can, but anyway, I will think again about the vamp can pick up human's item but i will try to prevent those feed.


Last edited by popopxD on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:20 pm

Why?
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:47 pm

Dub wrote:
Why?


Er i remember that I tried to use my slayer to buy grave and it is not appear in my inventory, or I was confusing with the tremble....
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PostSubject: Re: Have you ever snatched the item from vamp ?   Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:43 pm

popopxD wrote:
Sir. wrote:

No thats not a solution thats just a warning that a mini is bad. Humans can buy and use lesser and massive graves, why cant a vamp pick up something that summons?

Beginning too see a pattern emerging with these balances.

Human cant buy and use graves, only charmed lich can, but anyway, I will think again about the vamp can pick up human's item but i will try to prevent those feed.

Shouldnt be a "i will think", It should be left in as noone complains about vamps picking up items, only bad humans that shout out IMBALANCE! everytime they are taken from behind by a tracker.

As much as i love your enthusiasm to improve the map, Let players like Deku, Triton, Opaca, Dub, Emo, czy etc. who all have much higher knowledge of the map and a skill level that makes you and i look like scrubs create the balance ideas.

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